I'm a newbie, please be gentle  ;3

Yeah, i'm gonna do the 140 hour course as of next week but naturally, as a newbie I have some questions for y'all.

I was wondering if there was anyone who has done this TEFL course (to any standard) and then gone to China, without a degree, and found work. Just wanted to know how long it took them to find work, and in what part of China.

I know I know, I don't have a degree (Bummer) but I can speak a fair amount of colloquial mandarin.

My house mate is a native chinese, and she seems to think I could get work no worries, especially as she has decent teaching links within the country, but I was wondering how easy it would be without her help.

Any answers welcome, even if it's just saying hi.

Bubs

Hi Bubs,

I am in China teaching without a degree.. also without a TEFL. Most places I have come across care more for a degree than a TEFL cert, though there are many places where neither matter.

I am at a great school in Hebei. It is a government run school, not a language centre. A lot of the smaller schools will want you to have a degree as it makes the work visa process a lot easier.

I went with an agent and as he had a lot of guangxi ( sway with the authorities ) and my school did too, my boyfriend and I had no trouble at all. We came to China on a Business visa, got a full medical for about £36 ( It would have been more like £300 in England ) then after some brief teaching in Shijiazhuang at the agents training centre we travelled to Hong Kong to change our visas. We started at the school on August 21st. It has about 10,000 students.

If you don't want to go with an agent, a good time to go may be September or February. The start of the semester. I would say the schools will likely take degree holders first, though, so you may have to be less picky about which city you want. Some, like EF don't really mind about the degree if you have experience. Others don't mind about experience, but want the degree. Others like mine don't mind about either. If you have no degree, you should maybe rule out the big cities.. Shanghai, Beijing.. There are many foreigners in these places, so the schools can take their pick, so will likely go for the simpler process. Hong Kong want a teaching degree!.. :( Try the second tier cities.. Wuhan, Guangzhou, Shijiazhuang, Chengdu, Xi'an, Harbin etc etc

At the end of the day, there are many degree holders here, but there are many, many more schools that need teachers. I think there will always be a place for non-degree holders in China, at least for the next 10 years. The fact you speak mandarin is so helpful. Some schools will not offer a Chinese teaching assistant. So it will be very useful for you.

Good luck in your search! xx

Hi Rin, Thank you for your reply, it was helpful indeed.

My name is Alex though, I said bubs as in goodbye haha.

I don't think I would mind being away from the bigger cities, I had no preference to go there to be honest. Can I ask, how much roughly did you have to pay to your agent, and whereabouts would you go to find one?

I think doing the tefl course is a no brainer for me because I could do with the brush up and confidence boost, plus the certificate (wether schools look for it or not) always looks better than no certificate at all.

One other question though.

What kind of money are you looking at without a degree? Obviously less than the big city schools, but it would be interesting to get rough figures (as long as it's enough to live off, it doesn;t really matter though).

Thanks again

Haha, sorry Alex.

The schools generally pay the agent for their services. Don't ever pay one yourself. I actually handed the bill to my school as it was in a different city than the agent, a few hundred Kilometers down the road.. I had a sneaky peak and the agents fee was 4,000 RMB. As I said though, this is the schools duty to pay.

The agent was very helpful, arranged pick up from Beijing and help getting the train to my city. He picked us up from the station and arranged accomodation for the time we were there. We got a little experience working at his training school, though only when we wanted to and the pay was good. I don't have a bad word to say about him really. :) Maybe I was lucky, I have heard there are some bad ones!

If you give me your email I can send his email to you?

I get 4,000 RMB a month. 9,000 flight reimbursement. Free apartment/electric and water and health insurance. The pay isn't great but SAFEA regs quote 4,500 RMB for a BA degreed teacher. So, not too bad I don't think. Don't take less than 4,000 RMB a month, whatever anyone says, it is almost impossible to live on less. Beware of over high salary offers. I work in a goverment run school and do 16x40 min periods a week. Training centre pay is higher but generally has loads more hours and worse conditions.

What Rin said is correct, the schools pay the agents.  If any agent asks you to pay them, don't work with that agent, period.

I'm actually running an agency in Xuzhou now with a business partner who is a Xuzhou native.  I've got one position open in Xuzhou, two in Zhenjiang.  Both are second tier cities and not very Westernized, so you will get a pretty good dose of actual Chinese culture.  We can work with you if you don't have a degree (I don't either actually, and I teach at 2 schools here) and you have the benefit of knowing I'm both a native English speaker, and I've been screwed by Chinese placement agencies before so my intention is to make sure my teachers don't have the experience I did.

If you're interested, you can contact me privately here and I'll send you my email address, etc.  We need people pretty immediately as well.

Thank you for the starting the thread and useful feedback.  I was wondering if any of you came across foreign asian teachers in China?  I'm Chinese (english native) and is interested in teaching in either China or Taiwan.  I heard that they don't prefer hiring Asians.  I worried that I'll have trouble finding jobs.

I really appreciate what both Rin and Logic are offering up. The information alone is really valuable to me.

Unfortunately, right now, even if jobs are there, I feel that I would like to do the TEFL course anyways, not only for future job security of sorts, but also because it will give me a confidence boost I could really do with.

Either way I appreciate the kindness, and perhaps one day will take you up on your offers. Please keep an eye out for me, as much as I know it will often be very tough (especially to begin with), I know I will be a triple A english teacher one day.

If not for the content learned but for the way I go about it, at least.

In respnse to YLC, although i've not been to china and seen this for myself, my house mate got off the phone to a chinese english teacher the other day and after asking a series of questions on my behalf, was given the impression that there are now a lot more chinese natives learning to become english teachers, especially within the big cities. So sure, maybe us western english folk might have the slight advantage of looking the part too, but i'm sure you would be able to find a job.

That could just be me thinking out loud though..

Thanks for starting this thread Alex, so many helpful pieces of information here for anyone looking to teach in China without a degree. Another teacher in China who may be helpful is Robert Clarke, he is a second year teacher and works without a degree also. 

Not a problem.

I was also wondering though, i've heard it's possible to attain a degree whilst abroad teaching. Has anyone here ever done this?

Also, for those who have used (or are) agents, I heard that the agent gets a percentage of your monthly pay cheque. Is this at all true?

I'm also looking at obtaining a degree abroad. Though I'm not sure how? I want to teach in Japan, and its pretty much impossible to teach without a degree in Japan, or so I'm told. :( Maybe an online one?

There are some agents.. maybe that will want some of your salary. As with the ones that charge you a fee, these are ones to avoid. The only money they get should be from the school. A one time payment.

Things sound good for you Steve! :)

What city are you in? I went with an agent too, had no troubles without having a degree. I also only do 16 lessons a week! =]

Hey guys 

this thread is exactly what i needed to see.

Have recently gone through some crazy life changes and was pretty intent on leaving the UK behind for a few years.

Managed to get all the information on TEFL courses in the UK but everything just seemed too good to be true.

Before splashing out my hard earned cash i started to go on the jobs boards and was very knocked back due to my absence of a degree to the point i nearly quit on the idea.

This thread has given me hope again, now i just need to find the right folks in china to help me do it.

Would it be a big ask for you guys that have used great agents to pass on that information for me?

Much appreciated Mike.  mike.asher@ymail.com 

Hi Everyone

This thread was really helpful to me - like Happydaze I nearly gave up on the idea totally - no degree, too old etc etc. I have now decided to go for it!

So could I have the agents contact details too please?

Thanks for the hope and help

Best wishes Ely elydb1145@yahoo.com.au

Hi, Iv just completed a TEFL course and Im interested in teaching in China but I dont have a degree. Im looking for an agency to contact. My email is pacosteele@hotmail.com

Hi guys,

I have emailed the address to you.=]

Your problem is not most employers but the Chinese government. Many recruiters and schools are quite happy to hire anyone with a TEFL certificate and that's that. However the government requirement is that you have a degree to come here.

Now there are are many people over here working without a degree and there are various ways to do so. One way is for your employer to give you the title of teaching advisor which does not require you to have a degree, you are technically not supposed to be teaching any classes but rather giving advice.

The other way is to get the employer to use a visa agency, of which there are many, and they will basically get the documentation by paying someone off or by faking the credentials. Whist I know this happens, I personally would not feel very safe doing it this way as I just think theres so much risk involved. There are times when the Chinese authorities have major crack downs, like right now for example, and obtaining visas becomes extremely difficult.

China's visa process changes by the second and the rules never filter down through the ranks as they should. You ask one person a question in the PSB and get an answer, ask someone else and get the opposite answer. China has just changed the rules on teachers again which means anyone that is not from the US, AUS, UK or an EU country cannot get a visa and teach here. So if you are Thai, Korean or Indian for example then expect major problems obtaining the Z and residency permit in the future.

Some people choose to come on a business visa and teach that way, which is illegal, but they have also just cracked down on those visas and stopped people renewing their visas from say Hong Kong, you have to return to your country of orign to renew the business visa now and that can be very expensive and time consuming.

Some people choose to pay for a uni course and get a student visa and then teach that way, again illegal, but overall many students seek additional income when studying here and they seem to get away with it.

You do have to remember though that the PSB can and often do visit schools completely out of the blue and if you happen to be there at that moment, may be required to go to the PSB for a spot check interview. If you are found to be working on the wrong visa or have overstayed then the fine is 500RMB for each day, a record with the PSB and a stamp in your passport. That means you get kicked out of China and will NEVER be able to return again, even on an L for a holiday.

It's a minefield alright, always was and doesn't look like it's going to change any time soon. I have been here a few years and do have a degree so I feel very happy knowing my permit is as legitimate as you can get. My wife and child are Chinese citizens too which means I am also entitled to get a yearly marriage visa if need be, only that would not entitle me to work but means I can stay here.

The biggest problem facing those that come here without the credentials is the fact that the only places you are going to get employment are with the more cut throat and ruthless private schools and recruiters. They are in education for no other reason than the money they can make and do not think twice about exploiting the laowai. Grist for the mill is all that you are to people like this and exploit you they will in any way they can. Bad payers, tell many lies about the conditions of your employment and as you are employed illegally there is very little you can do as exposing them only exposes yourself, they basically have you by the short and curlies.

The first job I had when I arrived in China turned out to be a chop shop but luckily for me I had my Chinese family to support me and was on the right visa so I took them to the labour court and screwed them for it completely. That is rare though as I say, most cannot do so and would not know where to begin even if they could, as well as the fact that in most legal cases, the local's side is taken over the laowai, sad but very true.

All I will say is check the expat websites for any cities you are thinking about going to, the community there wil have a large number of teachers who can give you the details on any known chop shops that exist and any bad experiences usually get posted up pretty quickly, beware of sour grapes though becuase not all teachers sob stories that get online are what they appear. Remember, there are some people come to China and expect far too much from an employer who is actually quite decent, feel disgruntled and go on to post BS about them.

Always ask a lot of questions before signing anything and seeing as many staff at schools speak Chinglish, it is a good idea to have someone that speaks both languages well to clarify details. I have seen so many people fall foul of things connected with their employment due to communication issues, and I am pretty sure that some of the more cut throat outlets use this communication barrier as a means to con you, tell you one thing and then later say you must have misunderstood. I always get my wife who speaks Mandarin and English fluently to clarify all the details for me so there is no misunderstanding whatsoever.

Beware of the holiday periods in China. Many recruiters like to advertise a 12 month contract at a set monthly salary, say for example 8000RMB per month. But fail to tell you that you will be unemployed and unpaid during the two main school holiday periods. These can be as long as 3 months in the summer and 2 months in the winter as well as the national holidays too. That can be as long as 6 months without any classes and therefore 6 months with no salary!!!!

If they have additional work in the hols thats great, but there are those who say that do when they do not. Yo uwant it written into your contract if they say there is, otherwise you may find yourself skint very quickly and no money to pay rent and bills!!!!

Another important factor to think about is if you get an English and Chinese version of your contract. If you do then you need to remember that it is the Chinese version that stands up in a court of law. Some schools use this as a loophole to con you and put things into the English version that are not in the Chinese version, in otherwords "Bait and Switch". When you question a matter they will point out that the Chinese contract is being adhered to and there will be nothing you can do. Always get someone to read both contracts and confirm that they are accurate and question any discrepancies prior to signing anything.

Bet I put you off coming here now eh, I hope not it really is great here, you just have to be careful as corruption is rife here.

Hi all

I booked to do th 140 hour TEFL in Exeter and I'm hopefully looking to be out of England by Jan/Feb and I'm pretty sure china is my place of interest although I am slightly concerned about this degree business (as I'm planning on doing mine when I return) and I keep hearing a lot of conflicting information.

Also does anybody know what the rates of pay are like, (again I'm hearing conflicting information) as I still have commitments (credit cards) that I will still need to pay.

Last thing I promise...........what is this Chinese internship 2011 I've noticed that keeps popping.......I bet thats the kind of thing I'd need a degree for.

Any info would be a great help.

Cheeeeeers

Penny 

Ignore my rant, I've just noticed the post from tianjinexpat.

Thanks

Hi

I am here without a degree. I have a work visa and a foreign experts certificate. It is a government run school.

Anything is possible if you find the right school! =]

Also, I renewed my visa in Hong Kong.

Certainly, the simple answer to that Steve would be that you have either been in China for a number of years, in other words before they changed the rules yet again, or your employer paid someone off and took them out to dinner. Corruption in China is high and you can pretty much get what ever you want done with cash and a friend at the PSB who wants lunch.

Call what I say twaddle all you like but I am simply stating the current legislation as it is in China today, you don't have to take my word for it go and ask the PSB or get yourself a copy of the latest revision of the labour laws as far as foreigners are concerned.

Rin, why would you need to renew in Hong Kong if you have a residency permit and an FEC? You only need to leave the mainland to renew your visa if you are on a business visa mate. That makes no sense at all.

The last time I had my RP renewed I simply handed in my passport and FEC to my employer who took it to the PSB in Beijing and voilà! The only thing that is renewed is the RP which means another page used in your passport. The FEC is a black book with many pages and simply gets a new stamp and date in it.

There is also the little matter of schools getting you the correct paperwork by means of telling the PSB you are a "teaching advisor" as opposed to an actual teacher. I would check the Chinese characters on your RP and see what they translate to in English if your relatively new to China as this is a loophole being exploited by employers in education to get unqualified teachers working here.

Sorry, my mistake. I changed my F visa to a Z in HK. However a friend renewed their F in HK one month ago.

Well they are lucky, because the rules have changed again and the only place to renew your F is in your country of origin again now. They have also cracked down on teachers from countries such as Thailand and other Asian countries, Africa and India which is completely stupid. Basically unless you are NZ/AUS/UK/US or from somewhere in the EU expect a hard time.

Dealing with the visa process in China is a bit like trying to navigate a labyrinth that is forever changing its shape, almost impossible. I had hoped that after the Olympics and 60th anniversary was out of the way, the visa process would settle back down and life would be simpler again, how wrong I was. It seems that the authorities caught out that many people during that time that should not be in China or were here under false pretences that they have kept things tight ever since.

Did you hear about all the people on business visas having to leave Beijing earlier this year, there were thousands. How China expects international companies to continue to have a base here and bring in their labour is beyond me. There are already cases of big business turning around and saying enough is enough, uprooting their base and moving to countries like Vietnam as its less of a headache to do things there. China seriously needs to be careful, otherwise it will find itself out of the game at the rate it is going.